#503 - The Choosing 2nd Beta

[unclemike]

Damage done should not effect damage taken during archery phase.  Knowing how to shoot a bow does not make you defend vs archers better.   So archery should not be compared to determine damage.  It should be archers vs defensive rating overall.  

Seems the DW may be getting his second cycle bonus vs spells in addition to 3rd cycle modifiers.   Similar to the way the SO still gets a bonus to his capitals defense a carry over.

Is not a problem really like you said it is a test game.  I will learn the flaws and use them to my advantage later.

Why such a surprise that the DW gets magic resistance in 3rd Cycle? It's on their setup for this game that was shared along with the other kingdom setups. Some capitals receive an extra bonus in 3rd Cycle as some had in 2nd Cycle. So, yes, there are some factors that carried over from 2nd Cycle, some were modified, while others eliminated/replaced but they're definitely not flaws for the 3rd Cycle game.

You got beat in battle by a superior missile force. That's it. No reason to say the game is flawed just because you lost badly.

BTW, as I mentioned before, some magical effects are factored in at the beginning of battle which will effect all stages of battle. That includes the shield spell that boost's overall troop protection, valor/fear to boost morale of troop combat value calculations, and some others but actual spell damage won't occur until it's appropriate combat stage. That includes a high priestess' avenging angel spell whose magic damage won't be inflicted until the magic stage.

[Jumpingfist]

About the DW. They have a trait that gives them 33% magic resist as explained a 33% chance to avoid all or none damage. But they get there 2nd cycle resist as well Not listed so become even more resistant. Another example SO gets added defense to his capital, this is a 2nd cycle thing but do the other pure mages get the same special bonus or only those carried over.

I do not care that my force got beat. I care that it is likely to much damage during the archery phase for a group with only 1 unit that is really considered a archery specialist. you guys are happy with the damage that is fine. I will just exploit what is not broken.

[unclemike]

About the DW.   They have a trait that gives them 33% magic resist as explained a 33% chance to avoid all or none damage.   But they get there 2nd cycle resist as well Not listed so become even more resistant.   Another example SO gets added defense to his capital,  this is a 2nd cycle thing but do the other pure mages get the same special bonus or only those carried over.  

I do not care that my force got beat.   I care that it is likely to much damage during the archery phase for a group with only 1 unit that is really considered a archery specialist.  you guys are happy with the damage that is fine.  I will just exploit what is not broken.

Still with the opinion that the DW group only had one archer type? The DW had a group that was 3x stronger than yours of which 3/4ths weren't even DW troops. Unless magic is used, your group will probably lose going against someone else who had triple your combat value with a lot more missile types.

As I said, people need to get over their 2nd Cycle stigmas that DW groups are only foot soldiers. That's not going to be the case in 3rd Cycle with so many different troop types that are available for every kingdom. You really need to look at the troop composition or you'll be frustrated at losing battles.

[Ry Vor]

There's a lot of new stuff going on in 3rd Cycle battles.  The new tactics, new spells, new brigade types and experience, artifact effects. 

In general, I think the code is probably correct / close to correct at this time.  What I need to do is revise the presentation of the battle results.  For example, a spell like Shield is in effect from the beginning of the battle, but the sequence of our presentation makes it look like it isn't kicking in until after missiles.

[Atuan]

Name ID LR Missile SR Missile Charge 1st Melee 2nd Melee Combined Storm (PC) Defense
Dwarves DW Good Above Average Good Good Good Good Above Average Above Average


This might help. It appears that dwarven xbowmen in the 3rd cycle are pretty good shots.

[Thudargh]

Atlantians

Apparently I'm being singled out for not giving feedback.  A bit odd since I actually have provided feedback, but I admit to falling down on that recently.  Life has been pretty heinous lately - I'll just say that my kids are more important than Alamaze and leave it at that.

So the Atlantian kingdom collapsed rather quickly.  There are a number of factors involved in this.  Part of it is that the two kingdoms I was up against were run by players that, as far as I could tell, were quite competent and didn't make any obvious mistakes.  I, on the other hand, did make some costly mistakes.  I lost at least a couple emissaries when trying to relocated out of a siege - which was a mistake because I somehow mentally blipped on there even being an enemy group present at the PC at the time.  (At least I helped test that bit of code?)

I also ended up fighting two kingdoms at once.  My conflict with DA started fairly early on - my memory is that DA may have technically "initiated" the conflict by taking a second village in the Sea of Drowning in the Eastern Steppes, but I was going to take all the PCs in the Sea of Drowning in Synisvania anyway we might as well place the "blame" on me.  I successfully did so, but never really intended to move outside the sea area.  This was a strategic mistake, as it let DA build up and seek revenge.  About the time DA moved north is when DW attacked from the north.  Between the two of them, I got wiped out in fairly short order.  (Missing a turn really didn't help either.)

One thing I can say is that the Atlantians advantage on the sea is that it doesn't count for much.  Or more accurately that I wasn't able to figure out how to leverage it into much.  Just like 2nd Cycle, if you don't build up your navy, then you just don't move against water PCs militarily.  While I could, Atlantian troops don't appear to be terribly effective.  Or I just haven't figured out how to do 3rd Cycle militaries effectively.  The fact that navies can't multi-task was limiting - I couldn't do both offense and defense at the same time.  The fact that trade missions require a PC on the sea in question limited that advantage as well.  A potentially viable strategy might be to build up a powerful navy and use small groups to block emissaries from relocating to water PCs - you could secure up to 4 PCs plus your capital that way.  Which is possibly all the Sea of Drowning PCs there are likely to be.

I guess the bottom line is that the Atlantians have to be about more than just the sea.  Actually, I'd say you probably should ignore their sea flavor in favor of their political advantages when playing them.  Which is kind of disappointing - one of the things I've been liking about 3rd Cycle is that the kingdom traits seem to typically have a meaningful impact, not just flavor.

Ultimately this is just from one guy who played this kingdom one time.  I think it would be interesting to unleash a top-tier player on this kingdom and see what they can do with it.  (Might do a great deal better than I did.)

[Ruingurth]

There's a lot of new stuff going on in 3rd Cycle battles.  The new tactics, new spells, new brigade types and experience, artifact effects. 

In general, I think the code is probably correct / close to correct at this time.  What I need to do is revise the presentation of the battle results.  For example, a spell like Shield is in effect from the beginning of the battle, but the sequence of our presentation makes it look like it isn't kicking in until after missiles.

What About wind storm I cast that against the dwarf but I retreated after the missile phase. It did not look like it had any effect.

[unclemike]

There's a lot of new stuff going on in 3rd Cycle battles.  The new tactics, new spells, new brigade types and experience, artifact effects. 

In general, I think the code is probably correct / close to correct at this time.  What I need to do is revise the presentation of the battle results.  For example, a spell like Shield is in effect from the beginning of the battle, but the sequence of our presentation makes it look like it isn't kicking in until after missiles.

What About wind storm I cast that against the dwarf but I retreated after the missile phase. It did not look like it had any effect.

Wind Storm did work but you have to consider that the DW was more than 3x your size, had an assortment of decent missile troops, and importantly, issued a Barrage Attack maneuver against you.

So your Wind Storm limited his effectiveness by 50% (and reduced yours by 25% since wind storm is a two-edged sword) but his Barrage Attack countered that by boosting his missile values by 200% long-range and 150% short-range.

I'm not going to provide the details on how the combat code works but it is pretty obvious that if the DW missiles got -50% from your wind storm but was boosted 200% from his barrage, that comes out to a +150% bonus still in his favor. The only reason why you didn't take more damage is due to your BL defensive rating.

If you want to protect your troops against others that are 3-4 times your size, then cast multiple shield spells (like 12+ wizard levels worth) or pick up artifacts that protect your group (like Standard of Valor) or you'll take a lot of damage against a superior foe.

Son of Conan (DW player) made a good tactical decision to issue a Barrage Attack last turn and if he had known about which groups were invisible (two NE groups), issuing a Barrage Attack against them would have wiped them out.

If you forgot about what all the special effects do in 3rd Cycle, look them up at the Help Guides link (barrage is in the rules addendum doc): http://fallofromegame.com/alamazeorders/login.php

[Ry Vor]

Thanks to all beta testers.  We're going to call it on #502 and #503 and just would like to get your wrap up on how it went and especially about your kingdom if you would post here.  We think we've made excellent progress since the beginning of the betas.

We haven't approached beta testers for the final beta as of yet.  You can still indicate your interest at support@alamaze.co.  Main requirement is commitment to 12 turns of trying new things and giving lots of feedback on the forum.  In turn, you get to explore a new kingdom and the new interface, as well as the changes put in from these betas going forward. 

[The Gray Mouser]

(Illusionist)  I really enjoyed the Illusionist, although between this being a beta with different objectives and my own errors, I believe I would play it much more successfully in the future.  As a wizard kingdom, it would seem great to have a shot at Arcania and its two cities, but I never addressed the food supply.  Such a basic thing, and could likely be solved with some trading with a northern kingdom, which would also allow the Illusionist to utilize its Trick of the Trade trait.  We did enjoy having our hidden capital remain hidden throughout, or at least not attacked in any way.  I would probably develop it more completely next time.

We experimented with many of the new spells, and tried to utilize the customization choices, although could have done better with that as well.  Orders were always at a premium,  so I wasn't able to use my agents as much as I would have liked.  The major thorn in my side was the Nomad got the Staff of Disdain early and used it incessantly to denigrate me in Arcania, while his King kept Enamoring in Arcania to neutralize my own denigrations.  We also had the Underworld mess with me from time to time with thievery and maybe assassinations, and the Tyrant was a distraction, although his one major aggression - trying to attack Esteria Vale, was repulsed by a Dome. 

I think in a diplomacy game, the Illusionist would be wise to try to come to terms with the Nomad and a northern trading partner, and likely have an ongoing dialogue with either the Black Dragons or Sacred Order - whoever is in Amberland.  I also wished I had a 5th group from time to time: even with a hidden capital, trying to defend two cities and explore, and from time to time keeping a group inactive to either receive reinforcements or allow for Project Group proved its own game-within-a-game, as I found the Customization Options to be.

Overall, I believe the Illusionist will be a popular, fun position, but also quite challenging with new sets of problems to solve.