General Strategic Changes in 3rd Cycle

[Jumpingfist]

I have a few thoughts on SVC stuffs

For rewards
If multiple players can claim then stagger the rewards. 1st to claim gets a prince and 1pt influence. 2nd claim gets a prince, 3rd+ gets 1 pt influence. All get 3k status points at the time they claim so will build as the game goes on.

Finishing the game
-For finishing the game player that declared Rex gets 5k points and guaranteed a podium spot.
-All SVC and REX winners are placed on podium based on game ending status points
-If there are less than 3 SVC/REX players then a non SVC/REX player would make the podium based on status points.
-if a player wins REX and SVC they are 1st no matter the status points
-someone can get both 3k and 5k if both SVC and REX are claimed in one game.
The idea with above things is so kingdoms like UN and Maybe PI can still claim the top spot even though every game is a REX game in 3nd cycle

[VballMichael]

Hard to wrap my head around the SVC. As I start to work on my next orders, it is hard to keep going as we tend to think of the SVC ending the game.
To HH's and my point, trying to understand what the SVC if it has no effect on the game and does not end the game or determine a winner.
Ok, I guess the re-orientation of the mind is to continue to focus on cool orders (though the DE is not vastly different in 3rd cycle than from 2nd cycle). Not complaining. Obviously, the DE holds his own quite well in this cycle, and does have a couple of new benefits that are huge, not the least of which is the hidden capital where I put all my emissaries early on and then just built up a ton of princes.
Since I had fewer new traits and new abilities than other kingdoms, I focused on artifacts and princes, and then took a couple of extra regions to check the SVC.
Thanks to those kind souls who died to provide me with additional realms.
Perhaps I will take another region and test the Rex .

[Ry Vor]

Seems the change in 3rd Cycle Secret Victory was captured in various forum threads over the last year, but not in the beta draft of 3rd Cycle Rules.

On the Rules, I have a lot to do to provide structure, clarity, corrections, new inclusions.  Rules are typically the last thing as the design and code has to work to go forward as well as have all testing changes in the rules.

Just briefly, the old spat was on Rex-oriented players feeling cheated if a game was won by SVC.  Meanwhile the design of various kingdoms and in the interest of making them unique in many ways, the SVC was necessary and I think a cool feature.  In 2014 we allowed the customization of the SVC and ESO.  So in order to allow continuing unique kingdoms and allow a wide assortment of styles to playing Alamaze instead of making it like Fall of Rome or other wargames, and to not also tear the player base entirely into two (we do have Rex only and SVC potential games in 2nd Cycle), I felt having SVC potential exist in all games, but not end the contest, was a great new addition and a good compromise.

Some details as we discussed earlier remain to be done here in the beta stage.

[HeadHoncho]

All fine and well and good, but I have what should be a simple question.

Who "wins" a Third Cycle game?

If the answer requires more than a sentence to explain, it's probably too complicated.

[Ry Vor]

All fine and well and good, but I have what should be a simple question.

Who "wins" a Third Cycle game?

If the answer requires more than a sentence to explain, it's probably too complicated.

The only change is that Secret Victory doesn't end the game.  The game will still be won, depending on format, by Rex, Team, Lion's Share, we even have a Most Artifacts victory condition possibility.

So, let's assume the game-ending victory condition is Rex in a Steel Game, otherwise Lion's Share, as it is in most Steel games of 2nd Cycle.  As we've said, the details of SVC in 3rd Cycle have to be spelled out.

[HeadHoncho]

I understand that declaring SVC does not end the game, but based on your post, it sounds like the first to declare SVC successfully also does not win the game.

Fine if so, it just makes me wonder why we would even call it a secret "victory" condition. More like a secret "bonus status points" condition, or something.

[unclemike]

With the SVC not ending a 3rd Cycle game, I view the new version of the SVC as a kingdom-specific "victory" of sorts and it shouldn't be broadcasted to the other kingdoms (much like how achieving your ESO doesn't advertise to the other players since it's personal to your kingdom). You'll get the standard 3,000 status points towards your kingdom total but that will only have impact for a Lion's Share ending game. Rex victory will always be on top even if their kingdom has less total status points.

Let's not "guarantee" a podium standing for achieving a SVC because that will only screw up other game results. Who's the real winner of a game if you share the podium especially when you didn't actually win the game? So I'm not in favor if guaranteeing a podium finish for anyone achieving their personal SVC since it's now only a kingdom-specific goal to achieve.

For an in-game reward, how about a standard 100,000 food and 100,000 gold for achieving your SVC? Keep it simple so the reward can be used for any kingdom type (military, political, covert, magic). If you go with a prince or influence or such, it won't have the same impact as it would for all kingdoms across the board so keep the reward simple like a nice amount of extra food/gold which will be useful for all kingdoms regardless of their nature.

[Ry Vor]

I believe I finally had something of a breakthrough on resolving brigade elimination and also fixing attrition yesterday.  I'm slightly embarrassed how long it took me, being an ex-CPA, MBA, and have had five statistics courses.  Really got frustrated in trying to get toughness differences to count more than brigade numbers by brigade count in determining losses.  Doing a weighting doesn't work as anything involving multiplication or division to all brigade types retains the same proportionality, ie, relationship.

I think I can get the whole rework to Mike sometime today, so if he can get that in place in the next few days, I would suggest we end both beta games on Wednesday, and would ask that all players please try to move to engage a foe, a group battle if possible on Monday's turn, and fight the battle on Wednesday, and note how the results differed from before.  Hopefully these will look more like what we expected.  Besides straightening out my algorithms, one change in battles is a brigade will be eliminated if it has sustained 70% casualties, instead of 2nd Cycle 60%.  Might not sound like much, but together with the Healing changes to allow specifying brigades to Heal, players will have a better (about 15% better) chance to keep their favorite brigades going.

There are plenty of other changes also to finalize and get to Developer Mike, but should be done with luck over the weekend.  Then I would like to have a good week next week doing all the Rules, charts, etc, and start a beta to test the accuracy of the rules, charts, battles as well as the code.  This will go maybe 12 turns at M, W, F turnaround, but if we have no hiccups, we should be ready to open 3rd Cycle to our first "real" games after six turns of this 3rd beta while allowing it to go on to T12 to see status points, ESO achievement, more battle results.

I'll contact players via email about participating in this third beta.  Mainly, this will be players who have provided lots of feedback and have not dropped lately.  I'd really like to get feedback on several new kingdoms where we have not had much.  If you are interested, you can send an email to support.  Again, its about trying new things and providing feedback, not executing a strategy secretly.

Looking forward to getting The Choosing ready soon for all of us.

[VballMichael]

With the SVC not ending a 3rd Cycle game, I view the new version of the SVC as a kingdom-specific "victory" of sorts and it shouldn't be broadcasted to the other kingdoms (much like how achieving your ESO doesn't advertise to the other players since it's personal to your kingdom). You'll get the standard 3,000 status points towards your kingdom total but that will only have impact for a Lion's Share ending game. Rex victory will always be on top even if their kingdom has less total status points.

Let's not "guarantee" a podium standing for achieving a SVC because that will only screw up other game results. Who's the real winner of a game if you share the podium especially when you didn't actually win the game? So I'm not in favor if guaranteeing a podium finish for anyone achieving their personal SVC since it's now only a kingdom-specific goal to achieve.

For an in-game reward, how about a standard 100,000 food and 100,000 gold for achieving your SVC? Keep it simple so the reward can be used for any kingdom type (military, political, covert, magic). If you go with a prince or influence or such, it won't have the same impact as it would for all kingdoms across the board so keep the reward simple like a nice amount of extra food/gold which will be useful for all kingdoms regardless of their nature.

I don't get a lot of ideas, but I just had one. How about a unique bonus that is only granted for SVC folks?
By the time I get an SVC, usually I don't need food or gold because I am making 300K per turn and my wizards are where they need to be. I don't think the reward should be too strong, so I would not load up more emissaries or wizards or troops. After all, this person is already close to winning. So, let's give them something ceremonial and private but useful.
Maybe they get a Scrying Ball that looks at 4 pop centers, maybe a Cloak that hides the king, something unique that can only be gained by hitting SVC. And it could be awarded to more than one kingdom if earned.
And yes, they still get whatever status points at the end as appropriate.

[Jumpingfist]

I agree 100k food gold by the time you have a minimum of 3 sub 2 sig worth of PCs is not even worth issuing the very valuable order especially if it does not help you actually win only helps you place second better.

Having the game go Rex only is a slippery slope. Some kingdoms just do not have a realistic chance of achieving that Rex. also Rex favors some kingdoms. I think there does need to be a way besides lion share for the game not actually having a true winner to win.

I would also put some thought into taking a look at how status points are awarded before any games have run and finished. I would think 1/2 points for agents and artifacts. Double points for prisoners. Prisoners are both a sign of fighting and taking it to the enemy and something others will look to go after if you start to build to many.