180 orders

[Jumpingfist]

When I first played 20+ years ago I had no idea what all the spells or special rules for kingdoms were. Just a basic understanding of what the kingdoms were about from there discription. I really enjoyed my first games a lot as I explored. Especially the unknown of the artifacts. Not even knowing what was possible with them. I have no problem keeping some of that for a few months until some games are done.
It will get out I am sure but no reason the first few games can not bring back some of that unknown and fun of discovery

[Ry Vor]

Hmm, let's consider the idea that "If you dont know the rules you cant play the game."

Let's see:
The Commands 43 pages
The General Rules 38 pages
Spell Lists - about 25 pages
Artifacts - about 20 pages
Setups - about 90 pages
Player Aides for most of the most sophisticated orders
Order Entry and Verification - corrects almost all errors
Forum with 21,000 posts
Active response from those-in-charge at support@alamaze.co

So the problem is not enough rules and resources? We should make that list a lot bigger? That we are obfuscating too much?

[gkmetty]

JF, I guess that is the difference in our game styles.  Your success has come though diplomacy and interaction with other players.  I just learned that you enjoy exploration as well.

I prefer, and excel, at the strategic side of the game. I learn the rules and exploit those rules to gain victory.  In my gaming style the unknown rules are the biggest detractor to any game. 

Its a tough choice Rick will need to make.  Keeping the secrets of the game will delight some players while the same secrets will drive other players away from the game.  Eventually when the secrets have been exposed, hopefully, some of the strategic players will return to the game.

I'm not presenting this as a wrong or right argument.  Its simply preference in gaming style.  Based on some of the recent feedback on the forum there seems to be many players who dont like the "surprise" rules.  This might also be expressed as uncommunicated changes etc.

[Ry Vor]

I'd add that I certainly play computer strategy games where there is much more mystery than what Alamaze has, because we do lay out so much in the extensive rules set.  Two of the best known and popular today are Civilization and Company of Heroes.  There's not that many rules there, players learn by playing. Honestly, probably the biggest problem for attracting new players to Alamaze is the daunting set of rules. Appreciation again to the active forum posters for answering so many questions that help more players than just the one asking the question.

Overall, as you can see from what we have done over the last year beyond what was done in the first 27 years or so of Alamaze, we keep providing more and more on what happens inside the black box, and tools to assist the player.  I could say again, what game provides more than we do on this front, but I know the answer will not be forthcoming.

If there are actually some players that don't want to experience 3rd Cycle because there will be new secrets, the intention is there will always be 2nd Cycle available as well.

Again, the idea is to create that new mystery that isn't in Alamaze 2nd Cycle as many of our players have more than a decade of experience. So we have released many player aids for 2nd Cycle to assist the newer players, aids that didn't exist before. I think we've been at least "responsive". I'm saying with a new game, I don't intend to lay out everything that I have been working on for quite some time in formulas. And I do think of Alamaze as a Strategic Adventure Game, although players can think of it however they like. But I get at least two votes.

[HeadHoncho]

Civ has all of its rules well-published in advance. You can play a very complete game, and you have all of the rules.

Strategy and tactics, of course, take time to master. And there is "fog of war" in the black part of the map that you gradually reveal, which Alamaze also shares as a concept.

[gkmetty]

RyVor, Lets take a recent example.

The commands, the Gen Rules, the Spell lists, the setups dont indicate that the DE Princes have a natural aversion to Kidnap. The Setup does specifically indicate that they have an aversion to assassinate. I assumed that since assassinate was specifically identified and kidnap was not that to kidnap would have the same chance as a normal Prince. I raised an agent to L15 in preparation for my kidnap attempt. I set a standing order to kill all prisoners of enemies. I declared the DE an enemy and I set an agent to guard prisoners, just in case. I evaluated the traits of the player running the DE kingdom and I set a trap assuming they would use their DE prince in a specific situation. The scenario worked as I planed and I sprung the trap. According to all published documentation I should have had a 70% success rate and a 3% rate of capture. OOPS, sorry charlie. The unpublished rules give the DE Princes a natural aversion to kidnap also. Oh Well, live and learn. Except that it cost me a L15 agent.

Any player who has gone through this level of preparation and then lost a significant game piece will feel frustration. The fact that the loss of the agent was greatly contributed to because the rules were not complete gives me even more frustration. Had I known that my chance of success was actually less than 25% I would not have even tried.

I'm a strategic player. I use the rules. If I want a game of chance I'll go to Vegas. At least there I know the rules by which I might lose or win.

[HeadHoncho]

+1 again.

From personal experience and discussions, I am reasonably confident that issues like these, and the resulting follow-up interactions, account for the plurality of player drops and ragequits. (With the generally high complexity of the game being another contender.)

[VballMichael]

All this controversy over a simple question:

"Anyone have even a basic idea of what one needs in the group to do a 180 order? Does regional reaction matter (seems like it should not)?"

I withdraw my question. Did not mean to open up to a beating and a lecture.

I will continue as I have, not using 180, and will be careful about asking questions on the forum that may offend someone.

[HeadHoncho]

I can't imagine anyone at all blames you for this discussion digression, VBM.

[gkmetty]

I fully blame VBM.  He's always starting trouble.