Test Game, in-game player feedback

[Ry Vor]

In-Game Feedback for the Test for Beta

I'd like this to be where players in the test can provide specific feedback we ask for turn by turn.  This is for public consumption, still send specific questions or comments to support, but I'm hoping we can stay on track here and so may delete off-topic posts so this serves as a good source for compiling on-target feedback.  So testers, post your feedback each turn beginning with the specific turn 0 planning here. 

Feedback from the Testers for Turn One Requested:

1.  Obviously the biggest undertaking for this test was the rapid development of the new generation order entry system.  We (Mike and I) and likely all the testers know this will remain under development during the test.  In fact, the biggest objective of this test game is to get that where "we", meaning the whole community, would like to see it, not that I expect a unanimous opinion on any aspect of Alamaze.  Just be understanding we know stuff still needs to be done, and there also will be "suggestions", and that is welcome.

2.  For turn 1 planning, I would most particularly like to hear about your impressions on the aesthetic, organization, content, and any imagination-firing thoughts of your Kingdom Dossier (setup file).  So all those elements play a part but even your summing up with a 1 (low) to 10 (high) with some commentary will be helpful on how you view just your own kingdom as if seeing the info for the first time, which you likely did.  Were you fired up, intrigued, disappointed, confused, scared even?  Not asking to compare to another kingdom at this point, just the visceral feeling.  How fresh or new does it seem?

3.  How much thought did you give to your Kingdom Customization choices, and did that help form a kingdom strategy down the road, combined with your anticipated ESO and SVC choices.

4.  Together with the Kingdom Dossier, the Turn 0 positions and kingdoms active with their traits and abilities, did you feel your initial and mid-game strategies would be much different from 2nd Cycle in The Choosing?

That would be great to have that as turn 0 impressions and first turn planning feedback from all positions.  So, hoping for 12 posts here.  If we do get that kind of feedback from the testers, I might post a companion thread for other players to post what they think on what they have read.

[DuPont]

Feedback from the Pirates:
I made a post about the order entry system elsewhere - much of it had to do with what seemed to be bugs. One thing I'd like to post here is my wish for - at a minimum - a way to change the King's name. A further wish would be to change everybody's name in a way that is automatic and doesn't mean work for the staff.

I was delighted with the kingdom dossier. I was doing my best to imagine myself as a new player and I think any new player who loves games would be really thrilled with the possibilities. Somebody scared off by complexity would probably not enjoy the game anyway.

The Kingdom customization I put a ton of thought into as I'm not playing to win. I picked two that seemed to best fit with the kingdom I'm playing. A capital ward because I think keeping one's Sea Capital safe is the best thing for the Pirates as well as something to hide an emmy.

2nd vs 3rd? Hard to tell - as I said, I'm not really playing to win and the came won't really last much into the midgame. For sure, it this were a 'normal' game I think there would be a lot more possibilities. I'm not sure the best way to 'win' at the pirates - for sure, it would require some new and different strategies than I've used before. The kingdom customization isn't something I'd do without a lot of thought in how I wanted to play the game.

Overall, I'm quite thrilled with the 3rd Cycle and can't wait to play 'for real'.

[VballMichael]

Feedback for the Sacred Order:

1. New order system. We have all been feeding info to Mike on bugs and he has been fixing those. I still have some trouble with doing 699 and 720 with the same group. Some clunkiness to the map system for 720 orders.

2. I give the SA a 10 for the elements listed, just the feel of the kingdom. I don't know how it compares to others, and we can learn that balance through game play. But in itself, it takes a whole mind shift to envision all of the specialties for this kingdom. I think the SA has more traits than most kingdoms, so trying to maximize all of them will be daunting.

3. The SA seems to be a military kingdom with special orders for priestesses (among other things). So, like DuPont said, we are not planning to play this game for the win. Other folks will be practicing battles and 565 so I thought I would focus on finding artifacts and seeing how the encounters will work. I will also do some 565 orders and engage in some battles. I don't think I did ESO or SVC given the nature of this game, but yes, I would treat this kingdom differently than any other kingdom I have played and its unique characteristics would play heavily on those choices. With my 3 points, I took influence and then two things to help with artifact encounters (Valyrian Steel) and getting to artifacts faster (Champion Stallions).

4. Like DuPont, I did not really plan out mid-game or long-range strategies, but I would be very excited to do so with this kingdom in a full-fledged game. I guarantee my strategies with this kingdom would be different from any I have done with existing kingdoms.

Looking forward to our Turn 1 results today.

[Acererak]

Here's some early thoughts on 3rd cycle from myself (Tyrant).

1) New Order System - I like how it's organized, but honestly there is a lot of clicking and searching in drop downs that I'm not sure is better than just typing in your orders. One time I hit enter and it jumped to another tab. The extra order seem kind of odd too. I would like if the drop downs would default to what is actually an option as opposed to every letter combination possible. Don't want you to misunderstand that I don't like it, it's a step forward and just needs refinement. UM does a great job of listening to feedback.


2) Tyrant is a variant of the Troll but spread out all over the map. Having 6 groups and 7 starting pop centers seems good but also if I had a long term strategy might be difficult to manage focusing on a region. Specialties seem to be good, I like the differences inherent in each kingdom to be a lot, otherwise they all end up the same after about 12 turns.. Military depth is interesting for sure, like the economic benefits and industrious seems super useful. I'd give it a 7, seems mostly fresh.

3) Didn't give a ton of thought because we've been told this will only last 10 or so turns. Knowledge Totem seems like a really good

4) Hard to say. Certainly the main strategy in the game will stay the same. Figure out where you have the best potential expansion opportunity and take as many pop centers as fast as possible. Secondly, figure out who you match up well against and how you can relentlessly annihilate their position. The nuance will be different for each kingdom but these stay the same.


Surprises- Had no idea you couldn't 565 prior to turn 4, didn't see that documented anywhere in the rules supplements or my setup. Planned on recruiting multiple companions this turn but now find out I can't.

Reconned Avalon and found it was neutral, previously Ry Vor had stated that if the Pirates were in the game they would start with Avalon. Would have moved there if I knew this was inaccurate.

Movement - Seems like if you have just a group of Warg Riders in a group, they might move faster than a bunch of trolls, but they all move the same?

Value vs Pop - Seems really low compared to terrain value. Has this been modified down to make it harder to conquer pop centers?


Hope that helps!

While we're at it, can't we just let the game run it's course if it's all automated anyway?

[VballMichael]

While we're at it, can't we just let the game run it's course if it's all automated anyway?

I am really going to focus on trying every order rather than on developing the Order. My kingdom at the end of turn 10 will be in no position to move forward with a full game against kingdoms who develop.

[HeadHoncho]

Atlantians

1) I have offered my thoughts on the other thread.

2) GREAT setup dossier. Loved the intro text. Loved the traits, and the special rules. LOVED LOVED LOVED the spell list and the Kingdom brigade ratings, I would only suggest that ratings for companions and recruitable brigades also be included. I almost wonder if there is too much variance in the food/gold recruitment cost and upkeep numbers, maybe try standardizing them to some extent, as you are with traits. Human and demi-human and humanoid troops cost this much food and gold per brigade for upkeep, stuff like that. Variance in the abilities and unit types is great, variance on the micromanagement like food and gold costs is quite a bit less great (as we saw in the game design changes from Civ III to Civ IV, as a concrete example).

3) I'm probably going to take influence just about every time, and this time I went for an Onyx Amulet because I think gating is a great power. I will probably switch the choices up depending on the Kingdom and my own objectives, but I didn't spend a ton of time thinking or planning in that regard for this game.

4) Initial strategy is probably identical, explore and try to take my region. I will probably use my mid-game to boost some fleets in Drowning, at least, and maybe do some trade missions. Having three fleets in two non-Drowning seas really adds to flexibility for this Kingdom, allowing for either mischief or scrapping for more early-game gold.

EDIT: I left an order on the table, as I forgot the Foresight trait gives you influence +3. Might want to code a warning on the verification screen for Foresight Kingdoms, if it's not too much of a pain.

[Jumpingfist]

Nomads (NO)

3rd cycle order is in great shape considering this us the first turn it has been used. UM is quickly resolving any hiccups found the biggest for me was the NO not being recognized as a kingdom so my turn was not fully populating into the order checker. Resolved now of course did I mention how fast UM fixes things. I found my self needing to look my turn over much less often since the order checker already had the rank and location of my emissaries and my military. This and the way as you fill out the order it prompts you for what else is needed are currently my favorite parts of the order checker. I am not found of the massive list of all possible letter combos every time I pull down a menu. Before working on an interactive map I would like to see these pull down menus give more intuitive giving only options that area needed. Examples only 8 squares around a groups location as they move or only kingdom initials that are currently in this game.
Setup and T0. First time looking at them I would give the kingdom a 7. NO are a balance kingdom closest comparison would be the RA of 2nd cycle except they weaker leaders but much better with special abilities. Fighting the NO in the desert especially during the summer months would be death. capable of having P6 wizards and starting with 2P2 able to cast both sleep and ward and all the artifact getting spells up to superior with there P2s. They have scorpions able to kill enemy leader in battle and very low cost zealots, but that is the rub those are the only 565 unit. So the NO will likely never be a military power. Still other may think twice rushing down to fight the NO and loose there leader via scorpion. NO are one of the few Devoit kingdoms without a starting temple no biggy they are crazy cheap for the devout. My plans for T1 were to scout using my military and start getting my agents to level 7 so I can scout using 979 orders. I bought a temple and moved to take the city. With fewer PCs per region the cities become even more important to capture. Looks like I did well now to find enough emmies to take all the PCs I found.
For my customized traits knowing this is a test game I took stuff to try out. I took valerian steel and the amulet to allow my Emmy to gate. The customized traits are likely one of my favorite parts of 3rd cycle. I love that it add even more differences between games even when seeing the same kingdoms.
Obviously this game will not have a mid or late game but in general I think 3rd cycle will be very different than 2nd. The 565 and 315 orders will make a big impact on the mid and late game. kingdoms doing well will be able to out pace other kingdoms even more than before.
-I saw in the new orders summary was 565 is now limited to 3 per turn, not until turn 4 and only outside of PCs. I can understand the limits but not at a PC this will likely have a high impact on military kingdom not able to resupply and being required to move off the PC they are at just to recruit 3 more units.
-the foreknowledge trait seems almost useless in its current form. Rather than a location of an artifact I got that one artifact was in Oakendale and the other a palantir was in Southern sands. I can not Devine these for many turns so it us very likely they are both gone by the time I even get a maiden

[gkmetty]

Illusionist,

It seems the Illusionist is a magic kingdom with some Underworld mixed in. It is very intriguing.

I think the start up and first turn are great. I really appreciated that the start up included a list of every spell available to the kingdom. This is a great help. The militarily section of the new turns will take a little getting used to. This is not a negative but in a kingdom with few brigades it was a little difficult to see the actual content, leaders and wizards, in the brigades. Its just something to get used to.

I will be trying out all the different facets of the game and I did not start the game with any thought to a long term strategy. I am doing the normal recon activities but at some point I hope to just try a bunch of stuff.

I did put a good deal of thought into the customization. I found many of the options to be useful but in no way likely to change the balance of the game. This component is very well done.

With the order entry, in some cases, it might be more useful to allow direct user input rather then a drop down box. Specifically in movement or recon orders, finding the appropriate area in the drop down was more time consuming then just entering the coordinates myself. I entered my orders late on Tuesday so I did not encounter the issues that were identified by the other players. My military transfer and movement orders worked the first time and while it did take me a moment, just a moment, to figure out the extra order button it was not difficult to figure out. Overall the entry system worked well and once I am more familiar with the layout, entering orders will be easy.

I'm not certain if this is the correct forum but I have a question about the create time spell, is the spell cumulative? Can multiple mages throw the spell to gain additional actions? Lastly, any idea of when the full spell list will be available, if not in this game its fine I would just like an idea.

[Netstrider]

Druid (DU)

So far:

I feel like I was just getting a handle on 2nd Cycle again after being gone for so many years from the game. Now I'm just confused again

I have not read anywhere if there is still a 3 brigade type limit in your groups? I would have to imagine not, because it would be impossible to manage that.

I'm not sure how it adds to the game to have so many types of "special" brigades available. I have groups that started with apes and centaurs and then I summoned some minotaurs. I guess it's kind of cool, but I know that it's going to really make a difference as none of them seem to have any special abilities that I could try to leverage. If there were more orders available and/or easier to rearrange groups then it might be fun to have a group of fast moving centaurs running around but I don't think they actually move any faster and it would be way more trouble than it's worth to manage it.

I'm sure you'll probably address this, but I have no real idea how good +12 to encounter strength means for my Valyrian steel. What is a general worth? Are you going to add a calculator to the order entry so we don't have to use the spreadsheet? If not, is Valyrian steel going to be added to the spreadsheet? I rely 100% on that spreadsheet being accurate.

There is a feeling of there being more orders and options but not enough orders to do more than the normal, important stuff. By the time I've sent a detachment, moved 4 groups, eagle eyed a few things, enamored a region, and move a couple of emissaries I'm out of orders. Most of my emmies and agents will be just sitting around for most of the game? Raising influence one point a turn isn't going to help that much. Agree with the other posting that the fool seems less than useless.

I don't think I'm going to be able to do very much cool stuff to try out the new stuff because I can't afford anything for now. Winter is coming and then I'll really be stuck doing not much of anything. So I'm just trying to do the normal region grab so I can have cash to maybe do something interesting. If you want us to do more "interesting" stuff, how about a cash infusion of 100k each or so?

Eagle eye seems overpowered and I only think that because I LOVE it. No more annoying scouting for PCs and then rescouting for toys.

Because of eagle eye, does DU really need that many agents? When I think of Druids I don't think about skulking around in cities stealing things or creating other mischief. But that's ok if you have a different idea.

[The Gray Mouser]

Necromancer (NE)

I hadn't practiced with the new gen web order entry before Tuesday.  I agree the look is very clean and attractive.  While I hear about the drop downs being comprehensive, I think we will get accustomed to it quickly, and the slider works fast for me.  So looking to enter "SE" for a map coordinate I can scroll to in about one second.  Mainly with turn 1, I just had to discover which tab some orders were under.  I think the advice that Chrome is the best fit is probably correct: I used Firefox and some scroll bars weren't showing.  All in all, for a first live turn in an application that probably was started less than a month ago from scratch, pretty remarkable and will only get better before the beta starts.

Even as someone pretty familiar with dossiers (setups) from Game 1, I really enjoyed both the sample of the Sacred Order that was posted a week or so ago on the forum, and my dossier for the Necromancer.  Not many cultural traits, but those like Order and Ruthless can be pretty powerful.  Not any terrain advantages, but I can't see why they should have them.  But the Magic Supremacy and even beyond that the quickness they gain summoning spells for an assortment of Undead makes this a very scary kingdom - for everyone else, I mean.

Understanding the game wouldn't go to conclusion, I still wrestled with the customization choices.  I couldn't rule out any, but for the Necromancer, I think there will be other priorities ahead of artifact seeking, at least until I find out about new artifacts.  So I could have made any number of attractive selections, but chose Red Elk Mount to add range to my best emissary or agent, Scrying Mirror to be able to check on cities or discovered capitals without range limitation, and to pump up my court a bit, added Expert Administration to gain a Provincial Governor.  An interesting choice was weighing Expert Administration vs. Attract Noble Family (gain a Baron) at 2 points vs the 1.  I went back on forth on that, as I will make the Governor a Baron.  This way I incur the additional order(s), gold, and influence to make him a Baron, but had another point to spend.

I believe the strategies will be quite different, and vary for the Necromancer based upon the other kingdoms in the game.  The spell lists are vast, as are the possibilities for building different sorts of (likely mainly) Undead armies, and the ability to Raise Zombies or Transform the Damned to Zombies, the progression in magical research alternatives (raise the P4 to P5, or two P2's to P3, etc) means it can be a very powerful position, played quite differently based on player personality.

Congratulations to Mike who not only put together the new web order checking and order entry, has worked with Bananas to get players using the Bananas Splitter, but additionally getting so much of the new design content in.  There are still spells and special orders to do, but it has been pretty awesome how much he has gotten done already.