Water Village Capital

[Rogal]

Question about ships, I know when I build navy's the order checker always gets how strong the new navy wrong.  Is there a way to get better navy quality besides 16000 gold per new navy ship added?  I built a navy to 12 and always added the max gold.  The best I got was a max of an increase of quality of 2.  IE. I went from 3 ships of 12  to 12 ships at quality 14, is that all I can do?  I thought there was a time I could just raise quality, but order checker does not like seeing added ship value of 0.

[Ry Vor]

First, I really appreciate our highest rated players giving Tips, Tricks and Tactics.  This a clever one so Jumpingfist has given a little gem.

My question though is the effort and resources and orders to put so much into a village.  Building up to 12 fleets of high quality, say about 120,000 gold, doing 10x a 3 per turn maximum defense improvements, to get to maybe 36k defense after 10 turns (for 180,000 gold), gaining a water village in the first place, making it the capital (20,000 gold and king order): that's quite a bit of time and gold.  I would consider the opportunity costs:  what else could be done with 320,000 gold and maybe 15 orders over ten turns?  32 power levels of magic development?  8 Agents to Level 10?  And what if some powerful enemy attacks when only partially through the development?  Its an interesting approach, and new ideas are always welcome.

[Lord Thanatos]

First, I really appreciate our highest rated players giving Tips, Tricks and Tactics.  This a clever one so Jumpingfist has given a little gem.

My question though is the effort and resources and orders to put so much into a village.  Building up to 12 fleets of high quality, say about 120,000 gold, doing 10x a 3 per turn maximum defense improvements, to get to maybe 36k defense after 10 turns (for 180,000 gold), gaining a water village in the first place, making it the capital (20,000 gold and king order): that's quite a bit of time and gold.  I would consider the opportunity costs:  what else could be done with 320,000 gold and maybe 15 orders over ten turns?  32 power levels of magic development?  8 Agents to Level 10?  And what if some powerful enemy attacks when only partially through the development?  Its an interesting approach, and new ideas are always welcome.

Once a player decides a capital should be relocated for strategic reasons the cost of that order is already being undertaken no matter where the capital is relocated.

Water hexes are protected against dragons and require an adversary to build sufficient fleets.  Cities are not located on the water.  So, the question is whether to select a town or village.

A town that does not begin as a capital has less than 14k defense so it can be destroyed by two Destroy Town spells.

A village that is at least 3501 defense also requires two Destroy Village spells.

Wizards cast Strengthen Walls to add 2000 defensive value.  Two spells cast upon a village will raise that village to 7501 defense.  This will require THREE Destroy Village spells to destroy it.  Two spells cast upon a town will raise that town to above 14k defense and will also require THREE Destroy Towns spells.

Thereafter, for every two Strengthen Walls spells an attacker is forced to cast Destroy Village an additional time to destroy the capital in a village.  But it requires four Strengthen Walls spells to force a player to cast an additional Destroy Town spell.  Actually four Strengthen Walls spells (8000 increased defense) require three Destroy Village spells while four Strengthen Walls spells only require one additional Destroy Town spell.  It does make mathematical sense to utilize a village if you anticipate wizards may destroy your capital.

The rebuttal to JF idea is not the opportunity cost for wasted gold/orders, but rather the fact that most kingdoms can gain Destroy Village spells while only three kingdoms can reliably gain Destroy Town spells.

The cost for fleets is directly proportional between the attacker and defender.

Another tidbit: as destroy town/village are 155/156 in the turn sequence an attacker need only cast half the required destroy spells on a single turn because the destroy spells are earlier in the sequence than Strengthen Walls (601 and the 600 order).  This means an attacker can finish destroying the pc the following turn before the defender can react (other than with a Ward PC spell - 130).

The greatest Alamaze advice Phil McDowell ever imparted to me was "study the sequence of events."

[Thudargh]

First, I really appreciate our highest rated players giving Tips, Tricks and Tactics.  This a clever one so Jumpingfist has given a little gem.

My question though is the effort and resources and orders to put so much into a village.  Building up to 12 fleets of high quality, say about 120,000 gold, doing 10x a 3 per turn maximum defense improvements, to get to maybe 36k defense after 10 turns (for 180,000 gold), gaining a water village in the first place, making it the capital (20,000 gold and king order): that's quite a bit of time and gold.  I would consider the opportunity costs:  what else could be done with 320,000 gold and maybe 15 orders over ten turns?  32 power levels of magic development?  8 Agents to Level 10?  And what if some powerful enemy attacks when only partially through the development?  Its an interesting approach, and new ideas are always welcome.

That's a good question.  My feeling is that you typically wouldn't max out this defense strategy - the key is less about making it impossible to attack your capital, as making it more bother than it is worth.  Once you are over 10,500 defense, an opponent would need something like 4 P6s to wipe you out in a single turn.  In addition, I'm guessing even Giants would need to get up to 4-6 fleets in order to field a force strong enough to take it.  That's a lot of development cost and time on your opponents just to whack your capital.  And the kingdoms this is likely to be the most valuable for will already be focused on wizard development, and can get this benefit for just a few castings of Strength Walls.

Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Rogal]

Why can't you just move your troops with navy, 3 casters using Ship of mist, do a combine order, bingo more then 12 brigades. Siege or attack and move off troops that live by breaking down the army.  The lost troops issue I thought was gone now if your navy is too small to support them alone.

[HeadHoncho]

Ship of Mist will not let you end on a water square.

[Rogal]

So how do you do unusual encounters if you can not build a navy in an ocean due to lack of PC'c?

[HeadHoncho]

You take a patrol in naked and cross your fingers. Expendable patrols are better, and sometimes if I have the time, I take in a lone captain or whatever, and then teleport in a wizard after the patrol has successfully made it, since a non-moving patrol is safe (and then the wizard can ship of mist or teleport the patrol off of the water square for a safe departure).

[Jumpingfist]

Thudargh is touching on the approach I take with this. I know it is out there and will make it happen as needed. Getting a village to around 25k is more than enough to put off most would be attackers. Most are not willing to build a fleet to that level. I also view getting your own fleet somewhat optional. If you start on the west side it is very reasonable to think about taking the 12 quality fleets as an SVC condition knowing your can use them for a double purpose.
I would not go full bore raising defense until I had the resources to allocate every turn. Until then maybe get to a respectable level and wait for a while.
Also for kingdoms like UN this is important because you want to protect all those prisoners.

[HeadHoncho]

One thing I've run into is a village running out of census for the 600 order. So you might need wizards to keep going.

But I agree with JF, at some point you can probably sit pat on the defenses and trust that you won't easily be destroyed or conquered.